The "aha" moment for me, as an outsider to this industry, is using a special shoe to reduce friction and increase lateral stability versus only focusing on developing a 3D treadmill itself.
Note that in real life you almost never strafe. Just look at any footage ( or a movie ) of soldiers/police. No strafing. Games made us believe that we need it.
Untrue. If wearing a vest, taking a corner involves side-stepping, and in any urban combat situation you'll spend a very high proportion of your time doing that.
Except real life uses partial strafing all the time. You don't run in the same direction your head, shoulders, or gun is pointing and people can dodge or rapidly change directions. Which is why strafing feels more natural than being forced to turn all the time.
True, it's really the fact that aim/view and walking direction are tied together in a typical game that puts so much emphasis on strafing. Any 'Mech with torso twist is closer to what we'd see with this device.
That's fine and good. But in games, I strafe all the damn time. If you're playing some kind of FPS game and you aren't strafing you're going to get your ass beat thoroughly.
I also strafe all the time in games that have spiral staircases. Much faster that way.
I completely agree, I was very excited until I saw the special shoes requirements. While I can see how it works, I don't really understand why they couldn't use a regular treadmill belt with some piezoelectric sensor to detect lateral movements.
Think about it. How do you accomodate movement along multiple axis simultaneously using treadmill technology in a compact, affordable, game-room-sized package?
> I don't really understand why they couldn't use a regular treadmill belt with some piezoelectric sensor to detect lateral movements.
Other than the obvious reason as they say, no moving parts(min 4 motors, moving belts etc) How would this work? How would one get coverage on a cone shaped walking zone, sounds to me like an engineering nightmare?
On the omni website it says, "Order on Kickstarter", but isn't kickstarter trying to remind people that it isn't necessarily a store? And so if you order one on kickstarter is it a guarantee that you will get one or is there a chance that it won't happen?
Yes Kickstarter is constantly trying to explain to people they aren't a store, but most hardware projects use it as one anyway. And yes, if you buy on Kickstarter there is no guarantee you will ever receive anything. There have been fairly high profile Kickstarter hardware projects that never delivered. Having said that, this one looks like a pretty good bet to ship, the makers are very engaged and obviously have working models that are pretty far along. Granted, mass production is harder than most people assume, but I'd bet on this one shipping.
Another red flag is that the "Risks and Challenges" Kickstarter mandated doesn't actually disclose any risks or challenges, just generic statement that could apply to literally any manufactured product and a bunch of puffery about how great they are.
I've yet to see a decent and honest 'risks and challenges' section for a project, they all end up talking about how great everything is.
They are far removed from the 'risks' section of a financial prospectus (which still get ignored!) and yet kickstarter backers have fewer rights and safeguards than a real financial investor.
They also invest much less. I'm not sure why you would need a safeguard for investing $429. Clearly you can miss the money since the starter clearly states you won't get the project until its done, and that's a minimum of 6 months away.
If the project never gets done and no one receives their reward, what's the harm done?
And on the kickstarter updates they state 'We have now sold close to 2,000 Omnis'. Kickstarter pledges aren't sales. They should not be describing them as such.
This is a great solution to the problem, and I'm really excited about it.
But there's one very important catch: The "special shoes" are not an option for people with unusual orthotics requirements (e.g. me), because they're not going to be able to make shoes suitable for everybody.
They have to create soles that can be strapped on to our existing shoes.
Judging by their prototypes (and assuming it does catch on) that should be pretty easy for them or someone else to offer. They're already letting people build the support band themselves based on drawings, I don't see why they couldn't (or someone else) release drawings and a bill of materials for the soles, esp. if some of it could be printed.
As it's going to be used only in controlled circumstances, they don't really need to be actual shoes, something like a sandal would be enough, and those should have fewer fitting issues... and it could also accept standard inner-soles for a more comfy feel. A larger size without an inner-sole could indeed probably just be used over normal shoes.
The parent wasn't "spreading nonsense about serious medical problems [they] know nothing about," they were talking about the shoes in video and how they could perhaps be modified to be more comfortable or applicable to other shoe designs.
Your medical issues sound serious and I'm sorry they cause you excruciating pain, but please don't assume people know of and/or were referencing your particular issues before you specified what those issues were.
I've tried both the rubberband type and the sandal-type (linked to above) and there are challenges to both. The rubberband type fit better, but are hard to put on (particularly when sitting in a driver's seat in the cold - but this wouldn't be as big a problem for the Omni). The sandal-type aren't secure enough, so they flop or slide (this would be a very big deal for the Omni).
From the looks of it, their setup won't be able to accommodate people who are overweight -- not everyone will be able to fit inside that ring. But I suppose that isn't their target audience anyway...
They say the belt is adjustable. Given enough leeway one might be able to use this unless one's downright obese, in which case it is probably not that good of an idea to put oneself through such paces.
Screw the flashy shooters, I would love to hike across Skyrim, although horse riding will definitely feel uncanny.
It seems that the grooves pointing towards the centre of the platform make for an unnatural walking gait. At the start of a step, the foot will move inwards towards the line of travel. As the foot crosses the torso, it will move outwards again.
Whereas in a natural gait, each foot moves parallel to the line of travel.
See 2:10 of the video for how the shoes fit into the grooves using plunger pins, and how they move on the platform.
Note that at no point in the movement the torso moves up or down, so the forces on the joints/back are much lighter. So wouldn't that make the movement a light unnatural movement like swimming is? Do people get many knee injuries from swimming? (I had a knee injury that flared up when swimming, but I don't think it caused it)
I'm really looking forward to the next generation of consumer gaming VR once all the kinks have been worked out.
With any luck, the problems and shortcomings of the Oculus Rift and the Omni will be solved within a couple years, and we'll be able to buy a fully usable VR rig for something like $1500 (glasses, treadmill, handheld controller). And we'll have games designed specifically for it.
Hmm, unless I'm missing something it looks like the full cost will be around $900 ($300 for Oculus Rift and $600 for Omni). I definitely agree things will get better naturally after a few years, but if this thing works solidly I will probably bite the bullet and drop the money. I need a damn way to exercise, and this would be FUN.
This is a nifty product, and a surprisingly elegant and low-tech solution to the problem of how to allow free movement while in VR.
I had beers a week or two ago with the project founder (really friendly guy!) and he's looking for software developers to help create an awesome SDK. Get in touch with him if you're interested--it's a really cool project!
Good luck with that. What makes the Occulus Rift important is how fast it translates real world movement to signals software can process to give a true VR feel. The accelerometers and magnetometers in phones are decent for their intended purpose, but their intended purpose is not VR. This is no Rift killer.
I had the opportunity to ask Palmer Luckey (the founder of OR) directly about the possibility of smartphone based HMDs. It turns out he's looked into it quite a bit, but ultimately the unsolvable latency of the sensors made him move on. It could work for viewing 3D content or for situations where the head will only be moved fairly slowly, but it's not a great solution for most applications. I would note that a dedicated handset maker could create the hardware and drivers which fix this.
I highly appreciate your feedback. Especially that the founders looked into that possiblilty, just shows how much class they have. Carmack doesn't support them just because they're cool. There is more to it.
That's speculation. Do you have factual evidence to prove that current accelerometers aren't responsive enought? Like a datasheet, a publication or something similar that isn't based on gut feeling. No offense, I appreciate the Occulus Rift as a high tech device that sets new limits in VR Technology, but Smartphones have come a long way sir.
Are you saying that the iPhone4s, iPhone5, Galaxy S3, Galaxy S4 and Google Nexus phones accelerometers are really unresponsive? Btw. just in case your theory is right (I admit when I'm wrong), then please checkout how long that theory will have legs ;)
See my sibling comment to yours for more context. There are two main problems with the sensors in current devices. The first is that the communication layers (hardware and software) between the sensors and your applications can add 60ms or more. The rendering loop itself will add another 16ms (60fps) or 33ms (30fps). The second problem is that they fast, but not very fast. Generally phone position sensors can run 100 times a second. The OR sensors, on the other hand, run at something like 1000 times a second. This lets a processor in the goggles themselves do predictive algorithms which guess at future head motion allowing the higher level software to compensate for expected head motion.
The key is that humans can perceive latency around 20-30ms, and the phone is delivering around 80-100 in the best case. For what it's worth, I did real measurements on all this before giving up on the idea myself.
I just looked through the Datasheet and I have to correct my post. It HAS DATA about the latency, but I don't fully understand it. It says something about 2000 times a second.
Please open the PDF on page 14, chapter 2 Module specifications.
Latency is measured in seconds, not Hz. I can film the sun at 2, 2 thousand or 2 million images a second, but when I do that from earth, the latency will never (1) be below 8 minutes.
(1) nerd remarks: yes, it will eventually go below it, when the sun expands to become a red giant. Also, earth might be knocked out of its orbit earlier, or maybe we move it, etc.
hmm.. I know about the humans limit, that's important to begin with. I don't know details about the latency. My busted post doesn't have that backing, but the sensitivity of 16G is enough for VR applications.
Even if there were a single phone that outperformed the Rift in real world responsiveness (and there isn't), that wouldn't really change anything because the whole value proposition of a generic smartphone printed solution is you use it with whatever phone you already have. If you have some phone other than that super phone, as the majority of smartphone users would, you then have to buy some specific $650 phone for the thing to give you comparable performance to the Rift, and you just spent more than double what a Rift costs.
Who said that your ordinary iPhone4s or iPhone5 hasn't comparable, equal or better sensors? Am not here to speculate and I know it's tedious to prove everything, but I welcome it in your next post :)
Everyone benefits, if one bright mind comes up with a solution or a fact that others have to live with.
Note that the attributes of the phone hardware sensors are important, but not sufficient—generic "use any phone, no root required!" solutions like you mentioned will have to send the data through a full stack of software layers that are very unlikely to be optimized for high-rate / low-latency uses like this one.
You might get lucky and have a phone so incredibly powerful that even non-optimal software stacks are fast/low-latency enough to work well, but I suspect it will be a long time before most people do...
While running backwards is a popular
tactic in FPS games, it's one that is obviously completely unrealistic. I think given that this is a virtual reality device, it's more likely to be used for more realistic games that wouldn't require backwards running.
If it's a fun and intuitive device, it seems likely it will be used for all sorts of games, even those that are completely unrealistic...
[My impression is that the running backward technique is profitable largely due to limitations on user control and enemy AI, and those are probably not going to go away any time soon (even if developers might really want to make a game that feels realistic, it's, well, hard :)...]
If by realistic games You mean "Jogging In The Park Simulator 2013" then i guess it's perfect. This could be a nice device to try out on some gaming expo but i think most gamers will be disappointed with the lack of actions they can perform in it.
Yeah, strafing and walking backwards at least you can do. How would you crouch and go prone for example?
And I wonder how good you would be able to aim with Omni, that's gonna be a deciding factor.
This isn't intended to be the Holodeck - but it's a step in the right direction.
For that matter, how would you represent a jump?
That said, I'd use the hell out of it for a game like Skyrim, or other open world environments. And it can be so much more than that, .e.g. ocean/space environments for instance.
The gameplay is secondary - there are a lot of motions that can't be expressed well using this device (although with the kinect, you can unlock a lot of arm motions - good for sword play, I'd wager) - but it's superb for walking in fantasy environments.
Given sufficiently low friction, there should actually be very little force exerted on the belt. Some sort of larger harness might be an option if it does become an issue.
A diaper-like seat would be a nice addition. With that kind of support user could be waving his legs forwards, backwards and even sideways with little to no problem.
I think there may also be a market for it in health clubs as well, they are constantly looking for new gizmos to entice new members in. Also, I see people at the gym try to do lateral movement on the treadmill by going sideways on it so I think people are looking for more than the boring 1D experience of a simple treadmill.
Yes, people have played games instead of going to the gym, but I wouldn't call that "exercising". I guess you could put Wii/Kinect in this category, but even those are pretty static compared to this. You're actually running on this.
You're actually running on the football field or lacrosse pitch; actually swimming on the water polo field. You're actually throwing a Frisbee around with your friends.
With regard to the Omni as a way to exercise, I wonder how it stacks up to actual running/walking since the user does not actually have to propel his or her own weight.
It must be somewhere in between. But definitely closer to running than walking. When running most of you effort is directed against the gravity, that is why the treadmills work.
I wonder how running/jumping feels, since there are a lot of games where your character running/jumping skills are far better yours in real life.
From the "Oculus Rift" demos I've seen, it seems people already feel weird by the character height, so I guess it might feel a little awkward to run twice as fast as expected.
Ugh. This will eventually destroy my knees or hips someday. It's bad enough that I go running an hour every other day. I just can't imagine doing that for 6 to 8 hours. Although, I think this will be awesome for out of shape people who love games. Might be the thing we need to goad these people into shape!
Most of the problems associated with running come from the unforgiving impact of your foot on the ground (often a hard surface). Devices like this and other treadmills are much better if you have joint problems.
An obese person should not be running in any case, even if they're able from a cardiovascular standpoint, the impact that running & jogging has on joints is unacceptably severe until a person reaches a normal weight range - even the ubiquitous-in-the-US 'Overweight' status is pushing it.
Ellipticals, cycling, walking, leg lift machines, etc are much better.
If this becomes an issue of picking your evil, I'd prefer the devil that allows me to play extremely immersive games for hours while maintaining a high quality fitness level.
I can't comment on why it resonates so well with people, but I noticed that the same Kickstarter was posted earlier today using the original OP title "Omni: Move Naturally in Your Favorite Game" and it received hardly any attention.
Yea that title is pretty bad. "Move naturally in your favorite game" could mean any one of millions of things, when the most important aspect of it is that it goes naturally with an Oculus Rift.
Watch the first couple of videos.. It's pretty clever and cool. Doesn't look like it'll be fat friendly. All that aside, let's pretend like we're responsible adults for a second. The video, especially the end of the first, sort've makes me think this might be the "line". People have talked about violence in video games, and realism, and for the most part I don't think there is any real issue today, it's all malarkey. Something like this, however, changes the game. It's suddenly a very different experience when you have the VR goggles on and the VR running board and you gun down civilians in CoD, or kill XYZ in random FPS.
tl;dr. Does the omni + oculus rift increase realism enough that violent games require extra caution?
There's some dejavu for you. I remember this exact same discussion when "Wolfenstein 3d" hit the scene. That 3d killing of Nazis was sure to be "the line".
The secret jumped out at me when I read that drone pilots were getting real, bona-fide combat PTSD just from pushing the button while looking at those grainy monochrome heat images. People (almost all of them) know the difference between real and imaginary. "The Line" is in us, not on the screen.
One of the documented side effects of virtual reality is a mental disease called derealization , which makes people feel like real life isn't real, and causes a lot of anxiety.
Also there's the fact that military training conditions people to kill automatically without thinking and the fact that virtual reality has a proven ability to decondition people with PTSD or fear of spiders(with real results in real life), which is basically the same psychological process of military conditioning.
All this raises interesting questions about "the line" between real and virtual , that at least be tested before wide scale deployment of VR.
I think this is an interesting thought, but I would probably say no. I don't think that just because the Omni makes violent gaming more realistic that it changes its effect on players.
Looks fun, but seems a bit gimmicky to me. Why would you use something that is extra physical effort to use and makes you worse at gaming? I presume people will only really play games against other people using these, which means that the community will be very small.
On the other hand, I could imagine these or something like these making the gym more fun as a fitness thing rather than a gaming thing.
Most of those were for playing games that you couldn't reasonably play with more normal controllers, or at the very least you would be worse at with more normal controllers. There may well be games like that for this device too, but they aren't FPSs which is all anyone ever seems to talk about when describing it.
I think something less gamey and more second-lifey might have potential, but I don't think these will make much headway with hardcore FPS gamers.
So imagine you're playing half life or something and then you realize that you have to go way back over half the level because you've forgotten something. Are you going to walk? Or imagine you get to a difficult part of the level and you realize that this would be so much easier with a keyboard and mouse. How many times will you retry before you give up and go and sit at your desk?
> So imagine you're playing half life or something and then you realize that you have to go way back over half the level because you've forgotten something.
For long and boring walks you do the same as in any MMO. Hit some kind of lockbutton or something.
> Or imagine you get to a difficult part of the level and you realize that this would be so much easier with a keyboard and mouse. How many times will you retry before you give up and go and sit at your desk?
Well the same argument can be made for playing a game at the lowest difficutly mode. If I like a game and enjoy playing I want to beat the game on the highest possible difficulty. Of course you die often but it is also fun. Nothing is more boring then a shooter where you are never challanged.
Well people will use a good mouse and the will want to use a good treadmill. If your input divice is really frustrating, say a old school mouse with a ball in it, then you will just stop playing. If you have a treadmill that that is just frustrating and inaccurate you will also stop.
But as soon as a new mode of input is good enougth, people have fun doing things with these input modes even if there is a more efficent way to input. People play with controllers even if it is clear that a shooter can be played better with a mouse. People like to play wii because the like hitting the air instead of moving the finger to the button.
Its fun to use a wheel to drive a car instead of a controller even if the controller works much more accuratly. The same goes for the treadmill, running around and shooting stuff can be more fun then sitting and shooting stuff better.
Also nobody belives that everybody will always use a treadmill, just as nobody belives everybody will use mouse, controller, wii remote, kinect or anything else. Some people only like the mouse/keyboard other people have all the above.
I think lots of people will have fun with actually walking around and moving the same distance in the game. Also people will have fun when the look to the left while keeping there gun pointed at some door.
Having another independend multidirectional input will make it harder if you are untraind but it can improv the max skill. I remember playing Goldeneye on the N64 where your gun was always point strait and you had to switch between walking and pointing the gun. Then it changed and you could do both at the same time. Now we will have another such change, your head, your body and your gun all move independently and that will be fun.
