> I can't seem to get my foot in the door anywhere to do anything from level one help desk work to anything else.

Maybe it's how you come across personally; whether that's in interviews, or cover letters, or introductions.

A good hiring process is probably in the 60/40 ratio of talent/personality. If you're a complete 0 in the personality department, you're probably not going to get hired unless you're a Carmack-level talent. Some places will skew that one way or the other, but I doubt it'll ever go more then 75/25 either way unless you find somewhere completely dysfunctional.

Saying things like:

> I always bluffed my way in to jobs I was completely unqualified for and pulled it off quite well

are usually red flags for me, personality-wise. It reeks a little of someone who constantly needs to publicly validate themselves as "the smartest person in the room," and ends up not accepting feedback very well (if at all). To me, self-reflection, the acceptance that maybe you're not as talented as you think, and striving to constantly be better are critical parts of being a professional.

It's sorta like that person in school who constantly made sure to tell everyone that they didn't study and still aced the exam - most people don't enjoy working with or talking to that person for any extended period of time.

Anyway, I'm not gonna sit here and shit on you. We've all got our things. Just maybe some food for thought.

I have worked with people like the person you probably think I am because of how that came across. I was just trying to honestly express one of the few things that I do have going for me as opposed to just listing things that I don't.

However, as the quote goes, "That's the problem with first impressions. You only get to make one." People tend to be on their guard when interacting with someone for the first time - even if that interaction is just reading a cover letter. Things that your friends wouldn't blink an eye at can easily become reasons the hiring manager tosses out your resume, and unfortunately you rarely get a chance to explain yourself or even feedback that you did something wrong.

The best part is that fixing this doesn't involve a certification program, or spending more money, or anything like that. Maybe just have a couple people read over your cover letters or do mock interviews with you (not sure where you're getting stopped in the process, so can't give specifics there). Maybe try it with someone not super close to you (maybe a former co-worker?) who'll bring up something you're saying or doing that might seem innocuous but is raising alarms somewhere.

I do get contacted for interviews and solicited for resumes on a semi-regular basis. I interview well and am quite easy to deal with on an interpersonal level.

Thing is, there seems to always be another person out there who gets in after several weeks of consideration due to a number of reasons (relocation, having no professional experience and another candidate may have done an internship, etc.)

Before you say it, because were this the other way round, I'd say it: It has much less to do with 'me' than it does with a combination of my geographical location, and being a semi-self employed consultant/contractor/whatever they call it anymore, as opposed to having had a regular day job for the last few years. [edit due to being a n00b on how to post here]

> I interview well and am quite easy to deal with on an interpersonal level.

I think most of us know when an interview goes really poorly, but my personal stance towards most interviews is that if I wasn't offered a position after an interview it's because I didn't interview well enough.

Now it may be the case that they had some ridiculous or completely arbitrary standards for the interview, and I may be fine with the fact that the interview didn't go well, but I wouldn't necessarily say I interviewed well if I wasn't offered the position.

I say 'most' because that might happen (I interviewed amazingly well and they didn't pick me for some stupid reason) once or twice, but if it's a consistent pattern than I would start looking at the common denominator.

> It has much less to do with 'me' than it does with a combination of my geographical location, and being a semi-self employed consultant/contractor/whatever they call it anymore, as opposed to having had a regular day job for the last few years.

Again I can't speak for your personal situation or pretend to understand, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but my experience with professional employment (even outside of tech) has been that these are things many companies are willing to overlook for the right candidate.

If it was something they were truly unwilling to budge on, they wouldn't have wasted the time to interview you. You would've been screened out before anyone even picked up the phone to talk to you.

- first, if this is indicative of how you usually behave, you may in fact be more guilty of smartest-man-in-the-room syndrome than you realize. - second, if you do get interviews, your resume is likely not the problem, but I would still consider how you come across to others. In what I've read of you, I'm sorry, but you're not coming across very well.

Yes, Chainsaw did give me some good advice. I thanked him for his candor immediately as well.

Why do you assume his advice was ignored and assume that I am one of those "I'm awesome, why won't people hire me?" types?

I understand that, after getting responses assuming I still did low level end user technical support work for example, I should have been more clear about my little back-story.

That's on me. Maybe I am not coming across well. Even so, comments like these that are full of assumptions are making you come across just as badly.

about: 31 year old unemployed with 13 years experience. Trying (unsuccessfully) to break in to the IT Sec field. Been hacking and learning security in my free time since I was about sixteen. An enthusiast..

First, remove your age. I can't begin to tell you how unprofessional that makes you look. Second, the entire second sentence makes you look bad - like others have screened you and passed. The fourth sentence doesn't add anything. And finally, you should put in some contact info.

Sorry if I'm coming across a little strong, but I know where you are, I know it sucks and I want to help.

- Enthusiastic self-taught hacker with 13 years of experience. Currently seeking work in the IT Sec field: drop me an email at xxx@xxx to find out how I can help you.

Not because I am careless or think that I am somehow the "smartest man in the room". I was really intimidated when writing the OP. I have a lot of respect for this site and the people who are regular contributors.

That being said, I think that those of you who have been critical without being constructive have done so, albeit unintentionally, due to your own preconceived ideas and assumptions. Perhaps due to your own negative experiences in the past with people you didn't like in your own careers.

All I can really say when responding to negative comments: "first time caller, long time listener. Sorry about the sloppy OP. I had no idea that it would get noticed, much less be this active."

My description on the profile doesn't look good because I didn't know what to put in it as I have been lurking here for a long time but never posted.

I appreciate you all taking time from your lives to try to contribute. Had I known this OP was going to generate this kind of activity, I would have actually put some thought in to this stuff. Please, don't take that the wrong way. I mean all of this with respect.

Make it one page. Stick to things they actually care about. Yes, this means tailoring it to each opportunity. This also means leaving things out... that's okay, I remember in my last resume leaving off some ancient Java experience from college that didn't seem relevant at the time. It became a pleasant surprise for them when they discovered that I knew more than was on the page and we started discussing the usage of JAD.

Your goal is no typos, no informal/slang language and one, neatly written page. It should look neat, clean and uniform.

You should imagine that they have a spreadsheet or checklist (they do) that matches the ad. You want to help them check off as many boxes as possible as easily as possible. Then help them do the same thing in the interview.

When you don't know, discuss what you'd do to find out. Show them what you've learned in the past and how you've figured out problems before that look like problems they're having now.

In my last interview, they started asking me what I knew about REST and I started describing the last RESTful interface I'd made. Things went very well from there.

I hope this helps.

This is one thing I would question about your self-assessment. What evidence are you relying on for this statement?

The reason I say this is that, (I believe) research shows that anything beyond the first 30 seconds or so during an interview actually doesn't matter. Obviously this is a statistical thing and may not apply in any given concrete situation, but if you're going to loads of interviews, you probably want to maximize your statistical probability of getting hired.

Having said that, I just realized that what I started considering as the problem (my resume) may not be what needs work. In another comment, the statement was made that companies are willing to overlook certain things for the right candidate.

Perhaps my garbage resume is being overlooked I make it past the first telephone or face to face interview. I make it far enough to get that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach when you finally get the news that someone else was selected anyway. I'm sure I am not the only one here who gets that, right? Sorry, to your question, that is my basis for that statement.

You say and believe that, obviously. But do you have independent and (above all) disinterested corroboration?

(I think the experience you relate in the last paragraph might be a symptom of increasing pressure being put on the hiring part of HR and them, thus, being reluctant to reject candidates earlier.)

I'm involved with hiring pretty frequently and here are some things that help me: -don't bother listing every technology you've ever worked with. It's a waste of space. It doesn't give any context. Mention them in the context of your work history. - talk about the people stuff you were successful at as well as the technical stuff. - don't just say what you did, tell me why it mattered. For example "reduced build times from one hour to five minutes which enabled team to release twice a week rather than one a month"

One thing to remember when you are involved in the hiring process, particularly with technical people is they want to be able to say yes to you. Hiring probably isn't their main job and they have a hole in their team. If you are the right person for the job, it's a win for everyone involved.

Another thing that helps is having contacts that will let you know where opportunities are. The fantastic thing about having experience is you probably know a heap of people who can help. Getting involved with the local community around whatever area you're interested in can help you meet more people. I've also gotten jobs from being on related mailing lists and applying for positions that are posted.

If you're not sure your experienced is quite right, getting involved in open source is an option for building up experience and reputation. It means you can show people what you can do and if your work gets traction and if you contribute to somebody else's project it can be a way to meet more people in the right area.

I could totally see a "disaster" resume being a big problem. A week or two after the interview, people's impressions of you have started to fade and blend with those of the other candidates, but your resume is still in front of them in black and white.

However on the off-chance that some of that is leaking into interviews or cover letters, it's probably worth remediation.

1. Play by the "rules": stockpile the degrees, certifications, awards, etc. that we all know are largely useless but are absolute requirements for signaling your way through a standard corporate job interview. If you are after a normal, boring, corporate American desk job (nothing wrong with this depending on your life situation) you must play the game by the rules. If you don't, you will delude yourself and lose opportunities to lesser talented candidates who are better at playing the game.

2. Leverage your connections: use your professional connections to bypass / skip many of the requirements set by the "rules" to get a job. This requires less of playing by the rules but means you must have a solid professional network of people that have good jobs at companies that are looking to hire and are impressed enough by your work to give you a recommendation. This is harder than it seems, even for those with good connections, but I personally have found the most success finding good jobs these way.

3. Set your own rules: start your own business. This is the toughest but allows you to completely skip the rules. It also requires the greatest amount of talent and offers the greatest amount of reward. Speaking from personal experience, however, unless you have stockpiled savings and have excellent work ethic, this is a massive risk that has the potential to destroy your savings, emotional state and family relationships.

If I were you, I'd focus on a combination of #1 and #2. Get the college degree even if you think it's useless -- I'm sure you're being rejected immediately because of a lack of college degree. If you really don't want to do that, start working your professional network for referrals or start working on a great side project that you can present at an interview that showcases your talents and makes up for your lack of degrees. #3 is the dream, of course, but I've found that there is enormous value in the stability of a regular paycheck and insurance, especially when you have dependents, despite the soul-crushing nature of corporate jobs.

Good luck.

Leveraging connections, on the other hand, is a great idea. Most jobs are not actually advertised anywhere, and if you can use your connections well you can find yourself applying for jobs with very little competition.

And I disagreed with him, which I think is okay. It's demonstrably not a requirement for all corporate jobs, so you can't make sweeping generalizations like that. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that you don't need a degree to work at companies like Citrix or Google, for example.

I did very badly in college, and majored in American History. About three years ago, I quit my job and learned how to code. I was focused on machine learning and data analysis. I faced the same problem you did -- no way to prove I had any skills.

The way to stand out to employers in your field is to do things that are publicly visible. It's hard to judge someone's talent from a resume, but it's easy from a github repo.

Some ideas for you:

* Contribute to open source projects in the space you're interested in.

* Start a blog. You'd be surprised by how much sharing some of your own experience can help others, and it can raise your profile a lot.

* Lots of companies offer bug bounties -- try to find some vulnerabilities and collect some. Blog about your experiences. I don't know how hard this is, though.

* Make cool projects and share them on github. Blog about them. Post them on HN.

* Go to meetups in your area on topics that interest you. Meet people. Make cool projects with them.

* Go to hackathons if you can. They're a great way to meet people and find interesting projects.

* See if you can take on a small part-time role helping out at a startup in your field.

As for what's in demand, take your pick. I've talked to companies having trouble hiring web developers, mobile developers, and data scientists. Any of them is a good choice (again, don't know anything about IT security demand).

Thank you for posting.

I don't know if you had the same experience but I think for me the key to succeeding in this transition was to try and learn not only to 'code', but also about the engineering, quality, deployment processes surrounding code that most juniors (that I have seen) typically know little-to-nothing about.

That way, even if you have a lot to learn on-the-job, you probably won't be a burden on the rest of the team and they won't have to spend too much time holding your hand (except at code review time, but I guess that's the case with every newcomer to a project).

I also worked for myself for some time and had some experience (minor really) to help me get my foot through the door. Then when you get a job, you have an opportunity to show what you can do and after that you're just like everybody else.

Many, many security companies don't care what your formal education is. The reason for this is simple: there aren't many (or, perhaps, any) undergraduate computer security programs that are cutting-edge and relevant enough to teach the skills needed to be a good hacker. Unless we're talking about graduate-degrees, I barely glance at a prospective hire's formal education -- there's just not enough correlation between that piece of paper and performance on the job.

What I do look for is self-motivation, passion, and drive. I know it's cliché, but you can't be great at infosec if you're just pulling the 9-5 -- it has to be something you really care about. You have to stay on top of everything.

So how does one measure passion?

Clearly, if you can talk about side-projects you've done in the security realm, that's a great start. If not, being involved with the community (such as the free and local Security BSides conferences, OWASP meetups, etc.), shows that security is something that you really care about. Those events are free (or maybe $10), and show a lot of drive.

I know your actual question was in terms of IT disciplines, not just security, but I'm confident that what I'm saying here applies to almost every selective career type. You're trying to be competitive in a tough environment, so you have to make yourself stand out. Really, really wanting something usually shows.

That said, feel free to shoot me an email if you're still interested in the security route. I'm always looking for new engineers!

In 2011 after my time in the military was through I made a decision to get into infosec. I didn't know how to code, had never been to college, and only had IT knowledge from being a typical computer geek in high school. That same year I found out there was security firm in my relatively small hometown, so I emailed them.

Since then I've been reading books, coding, and emailing that firm every 5 months or so basically asking for work. To hear that self-motivation, passion, and drive are big hiring factors to you makes all this studying I've done over the past few years worth more to me than before I read your post.

I finally got a "maybe later this year" from the technical lead, I'm crossing my fingers.

Thank you.

Background checks are often horribly wrong or contain bullshit red flags like, "Claimed position: Developer; Actual position: Architect". Get enough of those and you'll be dropped for consideration.

When I left an employer a few years ago I requested my employee record and what was inside blew my mind. The background check was so wrong it was crazy. It said I worked at places I never worked. It said I lied about my work history (aforementioned title naming problem). It said my provided address information did not exist!

Fortunately none of that seemed to matter to the company that hired me but I suspect it's only because the supposed red flags were ultimately meaningless (did I work as a customer service rep at some company 8 years ago? No. Was it relevant? No).

I have thought to run a background check before. However, I didn't know or have the time to find out back then where to request one. I know there are a lot of sites out there who apparently generate a report for you for a price. I just didn't know if any were particularly reputable.

Where would one do that?

> When I left an employer a few years ago I requested my employee record

Were they under any obligation to give it to you?

Credentials are not skills. If you've been in IT for 15 years you have skills.

Go to meetups. Be yourself, but try to be pleasant and helpful. It's who you know + how you can help them.

Why are you "bluffing" through jobs when you should have a large tool-belt of experience? Just-in-time/on-the-job learning should be a positive, but it sounds like you need to improve your soft skills/be able to more effectively reposition/sell yourself.

Beyond a resume, which you've mentioned you're terrible at (learn to make a good one, there are plenty of resources, or get someone who is good at it to improve yours) you should probably also put together a CV/project portfolio. Is your LinkedIn up to date?

Also, while it sounds like your experience is mostly in IT support/systems integration, if you're looking for employability, just learn to code. iOS/Android if you're looking for immediate employability, some systems language, full-stack webdev for more general flexibility.

Participate in some open source projects, like others have mentioned, make sure you have a robust Github account. The only way to judge talent is by output, and having public repos and project participation speaks for itself and is a 100x better indicator than any degree or credential.

I wish you the best of luck, but you maybe getting feedback from former employees and coworkers to assess your strengths and weaknesses would be more effective than asking random people on the Internet?

Well, and get my contact info into the hands of every spambot posing as a headhunter on the planet. It's there though. Former coworkers are hard to track down but all have written recommendations for me in the past. Some are on the LinkedIn page. I have no project portfolio. I don't really know how to put one together.

I like asking random people on the internet because my former managers and co-workers can't figure out why I have been unemployed for so long either.

I recommend you try to apply to start ups because usually you'll have an easier time if you have the smarts but not the skills. Also I don't think you mentioned whether you were getting interviews or not, but if you are then I really recommend improving on the areas that you don't do well on.

Finally, while I also feel like I don't get much from LinkedIn, I also noticed that when I apply to a company they often check my LinkedIn profile, so I would suggest you put any work you need into it.

And of course.. do some cool projects that you can show other people! I remember reading a post on here from a week or two ago about how there are no good web fuzzing tools? To be honest I'm not really in the know about security but try and see if there's something that would be useful to make, simplifying as necessary so that you can start it on your own.

In anycase, I suggest you pick a specialty, whether it's infosec or something else, and make sure you are participating in the proper communities online - Twitter, mailing lists, meetups, etc and actually get really good at something.

From your response to mattmurdog, it sounds like you are defining talent differently from how I think most of the people here would - where talent == actual, not potentially acquired skills/experience.

There are a near infinite number of bugs, RFEs, unsolved problems, and projects to be done (just scan the articles that show up on HN every day). Publicly demonstrate the ability to fix some of those (like actually upstream some patches, release some projects), and honestly, you shouldn't have any problem getting a contract or any other kind of gig. Real (demonstrably productive) talent in tech is always in short supply.

I can't speak for Matasano/NCC Group anymore, but: I strongly suspect that if you can get through all 7 sets of the crypto challenges, they will want to talk to you. So far as I know, the resume-blind hiring process I built there is still running.

If you get all the way through the crypto challenges, want to work in software security, and have trouble finding a place to work, ping me. I will happily rep you.

I'm just a dude who picked up programming a few years ago. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not special and I'm doing fine. You likely have more experience than I, so there's nothing that should prevent you from getting in a similar situation. One thing I do have for myself is confidence, so maybe that's all there is to it.

On a sidenote though: With all those resources readily available, don't fall for the trap of being in love with preparing. I had a phase of getting stuck in a loop of doing one tutorial after another, setting up the editor again and again or generally spending too much time on minor things that make you feel like ticking checkboxes but actually don't move you forward. It happens all the time when one starts and learns somehing new - I saw it in music and audio too: People got obsessed with the tools instead of focusing on the work - whether it's that new eq or compressor (which actually isn't all that essential to the results) or starting the 17th tutorial before planning to finally tackles a real world project - in many cases those are just variations on the procrastionation theme. Just do it and learn as you go - afterwards you'll know which tools you really need.

There's so much information on the web, or via books/video courses/MOOCs that there's no need to do the structured learning thing. Particularly with Python. Plus, Python is used in security to create scripts/tools.

EDIT: Example of some books, vis-a-vis Python and security (learn the basics first).

* Violent Python: A Cookbook for Hackers, Forensic Analysts, Penetration Testers and Security Engineers

* Hacking Secret Ciphers with Python

* Python Penetration Testing Essentials

* Gray Hat Python: Python Programming for Hackers and Reverse Engineers

The financial thing was more about certification training, as I was (mistakenly) under the impression that they carried more weight and would open more doors for me. Especially in the Security realm.

I had also looked at things like bloc.io but who really has that much money for that kind of training on their own? Thank you for the response!

I understand this might not be possible in your situation, but if you can find an evening, on-site, accelerated program at a local non-flagship state school then you might be missing an opportunity. I've known some people in similar situations for whom this approach worked out well.

I can provide some advice if this is at all plausible for you.

(edit: the comment by ferrari8608 is an excellent example of why attending an inexpensive university can be a good idea, even without finishing the degree program; you'd be surprised at the number of positions filled via "former professor" relationships).

1. Try to find a not-too-expensive, non-flagship state school ($5-9k / semester for a full course load is a good ballpark. You can bring that down a lot by doing gen eds at a community college and then registering for 1/2 or 3/4 loads for the semesters you're enrolled at the uni. Most state schools let you pay by credit hour and are good about accepting Community college credit, but make sure you get a commitment from the uni that they'll accept any CC course you take.)

2. Get in touch with an admissions person and request a one-on-one.

a. Make sure they know you're an "adult learner" and, if you can't arrange your other obligations to take day-time courses, figure out if there are evening sections of every course you'll need to graduate.

b. Inquire about scholarships, grants, and subsidized loans. Talk with your family and figure out what you feel like you're able to afford. Be frank with the admissions person about financial realities.

c. Request a one-on-one with a faculty member from the CS department. Many teaching-oriented schools will entertain this, but don't be surprised if you get turned down. If you get a meeting, start off with general questions about the faculty's expertise in security (actually this doesn't matter so much because you ultimately want a job rather than a research position, but technical stuff is a good way to break the ice). Then ask that faculty member about what the department does to help place students in internships/jobs. As an added bonus, in general, faculty are more likely to give you a good sense of the quality of the school than admissions people (who are, after all, salesmen).

3. Don't be afraid or too proud to avail yourself of free tutoring etc., and try to be a participant in the department's community (e.g., attend official department events whenever possible. In general, be seen and excel.

4. Once in CS courses at the uni, be sure to stand out and that your profs know about your interest in security and prior IT experience (great way to get leads passed your way).

Other advice regarding finances:

1. If you have to take out loans, make sure they're subsidized. Make sure that increase in lifetime earning balances out the full cost including interest. As a good rule of thumb, the total is approximately the cost of a new, low-end car. I.e., limit yourself to the amount of debt you would put into a consumable. Rationale: education has far better pay-offs than a car, but more risk.

2. If you can xfer courses from a community college, do all those before enrolling at the uni. In the mean time you might find a good job (at which point you can choose to attend the uni or not).

3. Make sure your family is 100% on board and that you're confident you will finish the degree or get a job out of it. Be aware that, esp. if you're working during school, the time commitments and stress are going to take a toll on personal relationships.

2. Buckle down and master some real skills that are in demand. It's a cop out to say there are "too many options". All you have to do is pick one you're interested in and put the time in. You have to specialize though. Security isn't specific enough, penetration testing is, or iOS/Android development, frontend web development, whatever. After just a few months of study, you could probably find someone who will hire you at a low salary in any of these jobs. Then master the specialty on the job.

A successful resume is one that will be NOT discarded by HR drones or automated resume scanning software. A successful resume will get you a phone screening or an in-person interview.

If your resume is, as you said, awful, but you are getting to the interview stage then you are getting there DESPITE the quality of your resume.

If you are not getting past the interview step, the problem is not with the resume (it's out of the picture). So "something" may be going wrong in your interviews. I don't have any ideas about how to go looking for what might be going wrong.

Separately, I don't see any mention of the web site http://asktheheadhunter.com/

This guy has strong opinions that are carefully expressed. Many of his opinions contradict "common wisdom," which I often found eye-opening. He has a lot of interesting things to say. Poke around the site... read some articles, subscribe to the newsletter. It could be helpful.

I would also ask myself the following questions:

Do you really wan't a job (employed by a company), or you just need one?

Have you thought that maybe your talents are not appreciated in the corporate world?

One must consider that the recruitment system is broken, or do we really believe that with a written one page document and a brief phone call, we can screen people and dimension their whole personality?

I have asked these questions myself because I relate to your situation. My advice: Just be productive every day, and this means to create things that you think might be useful to somebody.

And yes, not everyone has the ability to speak the language of the corporate world. Just try to find the people you can work with best. Maybe you're best suited to be an entrepreneur or a workshop guy building stuff and experimenting.

Also, a new family is not a small thing, it changes many things in our lives, it unbalances us in many ways, certainly in the economic one. But don't despair because this too is a great thing that is already pushing you to your limits and thus providing the opportunity to improve yourself.

Consider this your life quest.

Taking the known issues as you have stated them: No degree, no direct experience in the specialty that you want to pursue, this is how I would proceed:

1) Focus on jobs at small to medium sized companies. They will be less likely to rely on some hiring script, and likely to give more weight to an interview.

2) Make a spread sheet of all jobs on monster.com & similar services that involve security and start applying for them.

3) Make a spread sheet of all the companies that you can find where you would prefer to work, regardless if they are hiring, and apply there as well.

4) Once these two resources are compiled start your weekly applications...

Week X:

5) Blast 20 companies with your application, prioritizing the companies by which ones you like the best. Make sure to customize the cover letter for each job.

6) Follow up on the previous weeks 20 applications with a short friendly email.

7) Spend some time during the week building something that show cases your knowledge in security.

I hope I've said something that you believe will be beneficial and actionable. Good luck!

Here's one rule of thumb I've been using to gauge demand. If someone's willing to hire you to use a tool even though you haven't really used it before, then the demand is there.

Another warning is that what's hot now may not be hot 5 years from now. iOS is hot right now. I'm concerned that, with Steve Jobs gone, Apple is going to implode and lose their market share. So there may be no iOS jobs 5 years from now.

Just keep sending out resumes. You'll find something eventually. It's just a numbers game.

Do you have any savings? If not, get whatever you can right now to get back. Be prepared to take something lousy and be looking to jump to something better.

They won't. Apple's vertical integration gives them a UI advantage. 'Normals' like easy-to-use things.

I don't have to tweak, I don't have to customize and I don't have to fix. Also they have a sane approach to bugfixes and security. Sure, it's not an open platform, but Android isn't really either. I don't have time to care, I've got work to do.

There are definitely some people who tolerate less polish[0]... I think I've made a category error!

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

To be fair to them, the number of flaming idiots that manage to get past HR phone screens these days is seemingly monotonically increasing, but along those lines, here's my question: if you're not even getting past HR phone screens (and these people frequently are keyword-driven dim bulbs IMO having suffered through some astoundingly inept phone screens that were a waste of an hour), what are you telling them? Or if it's not even getting that far, have you had someone look at your resume?

I don't really know what I am doing wrong other than needing to refresh my resume. Still, even in its abominable state, it gets attention and I do get solicited. I just always seem to lack something that, while insignificant on paper as it may be, makes the difference.

For example, I was very recently put in touch with a group in Tampa. I was contacted by them because an old manager in town had told someone who told someone about me. Long story short, great interviews and 3 weeks later, I was passed over in favor of an internal promotion because of the time it would have taken me to move my family from TN back to Tampa.

If all you are saying is true and you are really good, your problem is not getting a job. Your problem is finding out what you want to be in the IT. Developer/consultant/tech support or what? This is what you should be asking yourself in the first place. After you know want you want to be, then go and find a technology THAT YOU LIKE, THAT MAKES YOU VALUABLE.

> What area or "discipline" in IT shows promise for a career? This is one of the biggest top 3 mistake in my opinion. What tomorrow is cool and trendy, tomorrow will because obsolete (e.g. Flash), so technology doesn't actually matter to be honest. One day it's a keyboard, tomorrow it's touchscreen and in 10 years there'll be mental commands. This makes no difference, because we built the whole 1/0 logic in order to help us in our day to day work in any way possible. So if you are serious about this, FIRST find out what you like, than prepare for it, practice it and the step you foot in the door. Regardless if you're going in for an internship or to be the manager, your goal is to get on that door and keep going in, day after day. If you're that good, they will promote you by default.

Cheer up and find something that you're good at, the reward will come by itself. The most important thing is to like what you are doing, the rest is history :)

PS: By the way, I ended up being a SAP Developer, after which I switched at being a SAP Consultant in Germany. I still keep a closed eye at the security field, but just as a hobby, nothing more.

An example that might mean a bit more to you: In this forum, IIRC, jacquesm is a high school dropout. He is currently #3 on the leaderboard. If you haven't read his blog, you might find it of interest:

http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jacquesm

Focus only on you positive achievements. Sell yourself.

Get on daily job mailing lists from ziprecruiter, indeed, dice, and postjobfree, and apply for at least 5 jobs a day.

Good luck.

If you are able to demonstrate all that talent (github, outside projects, anything else) and you are able to hold a conversation with people, there are literally thousands of openings for you.

The certifications only really matter to Washington DC (or people making money off of DC).

Apply more places, make some things on the side that demonstrate you know what you're talking about, and look for positions at large, stable companies.

1. Getting a job. Know anyone you used to work with that is now at a fairly large company?

2. Getting into IT security. Ever considered going into one of the bug bounty programs, e.g. for Facebook, etc...? That'd be a good thing to put on your resume, as well as giving you some money.

And that's where you are wrong. Make sure that those coworkers and managers will back you up during your next interview and urge the prospective employer to actually ask these people about your qualification.

I had absolutely no idea that this would get so much traction. Some of you have given me invaluable insight and I hope to see more of it. A few comments I have even lifted just to put into a note to use as reference later. I think this is awesome.

Source: I am in the Army. It's not nearly as bad as you'd think.

No company wants to mentor anyone.

Am working as a contractor now. Thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate it!

Good luck with everything.

> I stopped because everyone said Python (which is awesome) and I just had a rougher time learning it than JS.

Whatever you're learning, someone will come along and tell you that something else is better. Ignore them. The first programming language you learn is teaching you to program, which is far more important than which language it is. You're learning transferable skills that you'll take with you when you learn something else.

1. JavaScript is not a great language by any standard. 2. JavaScript is the most requested programming language today (just take a look at job postings!)

Going JS is like going for sure, RoR is heavily requested too, but not as much as JS. JS is like the lingua franca of the web and since most people don't even know that there are other protocols except from HTTP, if I was desperately looking for a job as a programmer I would try to learn JS as best as I can.

Here's what I would see as a hiring manager if this was distilled down to a resume:

1. H.S. Diploma

2. Worked help desk and wiring jobs for 15 years with little to no upward career progression

3. No particular portfolio of work you can point to

4. Personally, given this background, you've ended up with a new family. I don't know if you're struggling to support them or not, but I'm guessing with help desk jobs it's probably a struggle.

All this together can read to a hiring managers as "not responsible or forward thinking enough to trust with a chance. May not actually know how to do the kind of long-term hard work I need for more senior/higher paying positions."

Even with a change in any of those four bullet points, you would read as a better candidate.

1. College degree instead of H.S. Diploma

2. Upward career progression

3. A portfolio of work

4. Family issues are not part of the conversation since your personal issues are not the hiring manager's concern, this bullet doesn't even exist.

I'm not saying you need to have all 4, but any improvement in any of them would help. You don't have to have a college degree if your 15 years of experience showed a progression in roles and responsibilities. Or none of that would matter if you had a bunch of awesome projects up someplace for an employer to look at.

Or with no changes in 2,3 or 4, in 15 years it never occurred to you to go hit the local community college and start on what might even look like a degree path? (I say this one with lots of authority since I was once in a similar situation as you, but I finally got the clue after only 4 years of suffering in shitty jobs).

You can't change #1 quickly, even if you started today, that would be years of hard work. Harder than you can realize right now (I'm speaking from personal experience)

#2 might be a framing issue, you might need to rethink how you present your prior work so that if there was any kind of increase in roles and responsibility it's reflected in your work history (and in how you present yourself during interviews.

#3 is also long-term, but even some github projects that do automatic security audits or test for vulnerabilities, things that a few weeks of learning shell scripts or python could probably get you, those would be huge on your resume. Being able to talk intelligently about those things during an interview would be even better.

#4 here's some tough talk. Your personal issues are of no concern to prospective employers. They honestly don't care, and anything they know about is likely to make them concerned about your reliability as a corporate asset.

#5 Finally, certificates are touchy things, they might open some doors, but not as many as just having a college degree would. Most certifications are barely worth the paper they're printed on. If you are really interested in computer security (a very good, fast growing industry with excellent pay and plentiful job openings waiting for you to apply) you need to get into a college degree program and work towards at least a B.S. in Computer Science, Computer Security or Information Systems and then get CISSP certified.

Here's some even tougher talk, to even be considered for a CISSP certificate you have to have had 5 years of 40-hour/wk work experience in 2 of 10 work domains. https://www.isc2.org/cissp-domains/default.aspx This is the level of candidate that professionals in the field are looking for, full-stop.

You can also become an Associate of (ISC)2 and you'll then have six years to get the necessary experience. https://www.isc2.org/associates/default.aspx

If that's too much, remember an employer is going to think "this guy can't even commit to a real certification program, why should I hire him?". Scout job postings you want, and look at the requirements, that's your guide for what is being looked for. Talent is not one of them.

If this is what you want, you need to start today and do everything necessary to make it happen. You're 15 years behind at this point. But you can make it up.

If this is all too much, you might rethink and go a different direction. A portfolio of tools, a blog on your topic of interest, participation in communities of interest (start networking NOW) all need to be there when you apply for that next, better, job.

#6: okay really finally. You need to start thinking in terms of career and not job. A job is where you go exchange labor for money. You go from job to job, the pay might be better, it might be worse, but they aren't building blocks that get you anywhere in particular. A career is a tower, each place you work gives you building material for that tower and you slowly build up as high as you're capable of going. Jobs are what you do when you're just out of highschool and looking to score some gas money. Careers are what you do to prepare for eventual retirement and raise a family.

I know I'm being harsh, but I know lots of guys in your same place and can't seem to connect the dots, even after decades of walking in place.

Thanks for that comment!

The real advice I have is that you have to figure out what your story is. What is the culmination of your experiences. If you're still doing help-desk - that's a job people effectively right out of high school do with minimal training. It's the fast-food cashier of tech jobs.

Are you still doing that same job, or have you learned something in that time? If so, if you've aggregated experience and knowledge, you need to figure out how to tell that story and how to distill it down into your resume and interview.

A long time ago I did tech support also, but I know I learned lots of soft skills. It took me a while to figure out how to parlay those into better jobs, but now, many years later and mid-career, those same skills get exercised every single day.

I think your best bet is honestly figuring out how to rerepresent your job time as a career, start building a portfolio you can show off, and start networking.

Good luck!

A friend of mine has some sort of security business, maybe I could get you in contact with him for advice at the least.

If you already feel like you are an expert or at least good enough to have a job in it, then apply those skills and make something to show your prospective employers.

Again, if your financial situation is not good then all these things just become more difficult. It sucks having a job you don't enjoy, trust me I am in one, but sometimes even if the job itself is not great, the things it will enable you to do make it worthwhile.

Please excuse me if I'm making too many assumptions about your situation, but you just remind me of a similar situation I was in a year ago.

It seems like if that's the issue but you are getting offers then I imagine you should be able to negotiate your way in. That or you could just go into debt momentarily.

Even start ups fly people in for interviews; I can't imagine they'd have too much trouble relocating you. That is, if you're willing of course.

1. Is this person the solution to my problems, or another problem to add to my long list of problems? Or, will this person make my workload lighter, or heavier?

2. Does this person really want to work in this capacity, in this industry, doing these types of tasks? Or, are they desperate for work, and will use me as a stepping stone to another position and in 6 months I am back looking at 153 resumes again?

3. Does this person think first, and ask questions later, or the other way around? Questions that could have been answered with just a tiny bit of thinking are part of my list of problems. Great questions, honed to the crux of the issue, after thought and research are actually beneficial for me and the person asking, as they are opportunities to not only fix things, but improve the end solution as well.

Following on from this, if I were you I would redo your resume AND your interview technique with the above in mind. Your potential employer is a potential client of yours, and you are a micro business of one person. You need to convince your potential client that YOU are the solution to their problem(s), not another problem sucking down a paycheck.

How do you do this? Personally, I would recommend listing 2 or 3 problems you solved in each of your last positions. Being self-employed/contractor is no different to being employed. You are a small business, hired by your client to solve problems. So list them. If there are disclosure or confidentiality concerns, make your description of the problem and solution very high level.

I know this will probably sound strange, particularly in this particular forum, but nobody really cares what you KNOW, they care about what you can DO. When I read your story about getting 895/900 in the Security+ exam, what it tells me is that you can learn complex subjects in a short time frame. The mark is irrelevant to me, you might just have a very good memory. The REAL question I need answering, is can you put that knowledge to practical use. Will you protect my company's network like it was your first born child? Or will you take advantage of the fact that I don't really understand what it is you do and do nothing all day leaving my business at risk?

It's not easy for technical people to do this, but you need to put yourself in your potential employer's shoes for a minute. Imagine YOU own your own company, and you need a network guy to solve your security problems. You need this person to be capable, competent,responsible and reliable. You need to know that they wont leave you hanging in 6 months because this wasn't what they really wanted to do, and they flit off to something else. How can you be THAT guy?

first of all - why the hell are you waiting for someone to give you permission to start doing this job? if you want to do this job, just start fucking doing it.

contribute to security mailing lists and keep an eye out for opportunities. write articles. blog. go to events. write code, open source it. contribute documentation if you can't code. sell yourself as a consultant. appear to know what the hell you're talking about.

DO THE JOB.

if you don't actively participate in a community nobody is going to give a shit about you, much less hand you a career with a pretty bow on it.

I guess what I am saying is that I have been doing the job for years. Just not getting paid for it and was trying to dig out two things in the OP:

1)What the disconnect between working on your own and getting paid for doing the work was.

2)there was a different area I could/should focus on given my disadvantages(financial, disabled, etc.)

Big data and analytics are fascinating to me for example, but only because of the implications and uses of those kinds of skills I can see in a Security related capacity.

I wanted to find out if someone would yell, "You need to learn 'X' because it's useful both in some Security roles and you can work doing that as your day job at the same time." Hope that makes sense.

I remember when Facebook used to put, what I presume, were PK IDs from a user table in their URL query strings. Lower numbers being earlier users. Anyway, I couldn't find Mark Z, but messaged one of the early staff. I then got a friend request off him. Pretty sure if I'd been a dev at the time, I could have convinced him to get me an interview.

I'm currently working my first job in IT, for two years now, after having only fast food and retail jobs. How did I get here? It wasn't my college education (I'm a dropout, due to transportation and money issues at the time). College did play a big role, though.

One of my instructors saw that talent you mentioned in me, and she knew I was into Linux while the rest of the students knew only Windows. One day one of her old students called her up and asked if she knew anyone who might be a good fit for a job he was trying to fill. I was the guy she went to, and now I'm in IT.

Long story short, it might be beneficial to you to know people who know people in IT security. College may be the place to meet those connections, though there are many other ways and places to accomplish that.

I made a tempr for my cousin who was suffering similarly. Take a look: http://tempr.org/54e91123b3f95.html